The Logic Lifeline

A logical approach to sorting out world events. Where logic, opinion and speculation are combined to produce a reasoned, but entertaining reading experience. The unofficial hometown conservative blog of Woodridge, Il

Monday, March 26, 2007

Boortz Has Some on the Left Pegged

An interesting quote in Nealz Nuze today:
Liberals love to paint conservatives as being ignorant, stupid, obtuse, mindless, irrational and, on occasion, retarded. For the most part leftists use this "stupid" tactic in order to avoid actually having to intellectually engage with someone who thinks differently than they. After all ... you really don't have to consider the opinions offered by someone who disagrees with you if you can successfully and falsely brand them as ignorant.
I think he has been reading some comments here and other blogs I frequent. Hmmm.

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28 Comments:

  • At 2:07 PM, Blogger SkyePuppy said…

    Your post title has it exactly right: Some on the left. Not all.

    A person's gotta be "ignorant, stupid, obtuse, mindless, irrational and, on occasion, retarded" to believe that just because someone else doesn't see things his way, that someone else is "ignorant, stupid, obtuse, mindless, irrational and, on occasion, retarded."

     
  • At 2:18 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    SP,

    The 'some' was put there just for that reason.

     
  • At 2:43 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    Actually, I think that you are scared little puppies reeling from shadows.

    You should read John Dean's book and keep yourselves in mind.

     
  • At 4:57 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    Actually, I think that you are scared little puppies reeling from shadows.

    Just what would I be afraid of? Do you ever make sense. If I were putting money on it I would have to bet you either are a college student or a college professor. Everything you say smacks of Academia. I'm sure you will take that as a complement, but my experience is that there is a great gulf fixed between academia and reality - whether it be political thought or other studies. Additionally, there is such a hefty portion of arrogance that blinds them to their self-illusion.

     
  • At 4:58 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    From Alexnder Coburn.....

    The U.N. says that in the two months before this last Christmas 5,000 Iraqi civilians were killed. The months since have probably been as bad. Saddam dragged his country into ruin. Then the US took it from ruin to the graveyard, plundering the corpse as it did so.

    There's plenty of blame to go round. You'd think these days that the cheerleaders for war were limited to a platoon of neocons, as potent in historical influence as were supposedly the Knights Templar. But it was not so. The coalition of the enablers spread far beyond Cheney's team and the extended family of Norman Podhoretz.

     
  • At 4:59 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    Another strawman?

    Yawn.

    You really think arguing dishonestly gets anywhere?

     
  • At 5:01 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    And the evil Robert Fisk......

    "I flicked on the television in my Valdosta, Georgia, hotel room...
    and there was a bejewelled lady on Fox TV telling American viewers that if "we" left Iraq, the "jihadists" would come after us. "They want a Caliphate that will take over the world," she shrieked about a report that two children had deliberately been placed in an Iraqi car bomb which then exploded. She ranted on about how Muslim "jihadists" had been doing this "since the 1970s in Lebanon". It was tosh, of course. Children were never locked into car bombs in Beirut - and there weren't any "jihadists" around in the Lebanese civil war of the 1970s. But fear had been sown. Now that the House of Representatives is talking about the US withdrawal by August 2008, fear seems to drip off the trees in America.

    [snip]
    Dr Michael Noll's students at Valdosta are as smart and bright-eyed as Dr El-Baradei's in Cairo. They packed into the same lecture I had given in Egypt and seemed to share a lot of the same fears about Iraq. But a sullen seminar that same morning was a miserable affair in which a young woman seemed to break down in anger. If "we" left Iraq, she said in a quavering voice, the jihadists, the "terrorists", could come here to America. They would attack us right here.
    I sighed with frustration. I was listening to her voice but it was also the voice of the woman on Fox TV, the repeated, hopeless fantasy of Bush and Blair: that if we fail in Iraq, "they", the monstrous enemy, will arrive on our shores. Every day in the American papers now, I read the same "fear" transformed into irrationality. Luke Boggs - God, how I'd love that byline - announces in his local paper: "I say let the terrorists rot in Guantanamo. And let the Europeans ... howl. We are a serious nation, engaged in the serious business of trying to kill or capture the bad guys before they can do us more harm." He calls Guantanamo's inmates "hardcore jihadists".
    And I realise that the girl in Dr Noll's seminar isn't spouting this stuff about "jihadists" travelling from Iraq to America because she supports Bush. She is just frightened. She is genuinely afraid of all the "terror" warnings, the supposed "jihadists" threats, the red "terror" alerts and the purple alerts and all the other colour-coded instruments of fear. She believes her president, and her president has done Osama bin Laden's job for him: he has crushed this young woman's spirit and courage.
    But of course Bush didn't do it alone, didn't spray fear into the dripping leaves all by his lonesome. He had ample help, and where are those helpers now

     
  • At 5:05 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    You ask what you would be afraid of?

    You're terrified of the great islamic global domination theory aren't you?

    You've got the willies over the great islamoatheist appeasers in your population, the dhimmicrats are going to give Osama Bin Laden the keys to the White House etc etc etc

    It's all true of course, I've been to the meetings. We'll have to eliminate the warrior Jonah Goldberg soon though. I think he may be on to us.

    You'll need to suspend democracy to save it I believe.

     
  • At 5:41 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    Are you making a point with the Fisk and Coburn comments or just dumping bytes?

     
  • At 5:46 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    You're terrified of the great islamic global domination theory aren't you?

    Not particularly. I believe it can be successfully prevented, so I am advocating preventative steps. You chide me for my guesses at your background, yet you have no problem making guesses at my emotions. It is so funny how many times you accuse me of things and then do them or something similar yourself.

     
  • At 6:05 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    No. I'm reading your comments and speculating as to the cause of your wish to believe in what is an unsupportable conspiracy theory.

    You very clearly have little understanding of the islamic world or geopolitics, yet you would tear down your own democracy willingly to counter this perceived "threat".

    Your strawmen are a rhetorical device to avoid honest argument and suppress issues.

    I left university 24 years ago and I am as far removed from your caricature "leftist" as it is possible to be.

    I don't think those "leftists" actually exist anyway except in the minds of the strawman builders of the extremist democracy haters like you.

    It is interesting though that you hate academics and intellectuals. True to form.

    The Fisk and Coburn pieces are just food for thought, as is the reference to John Dean. I think you don't realize how tightly you're compartmentalizing your thinking.

    Tories have been in charge in the west for most of the last 200 years. The "blame the left" meme is fallacious.

     
  • At 6:06 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    "Not particularly. I believe it can be successfully prevented, so I am advocating preventative steps"


    More war, more broken lives, martial law and thought crimes at home?

     
  • At 8:05 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    I left university 24 years ago and I am as far removed from your caricature "leftist" as it is possible to be.

    I don't think those "leftists" actually exist anyway except in the minds of the strawman builders of the extremist democracy haters like you.


    A good start. What do you do for a living. If you have not seen a discussion of my job, I am an IT Sr. Project Manager for a large corporation. I don't know who the dude in your icon is. Is it you by any chance? To be fair, the guy in my icon is not me.

    It is quite common when arguing with those different from me politically that there is always the long drawn out process of defining terms. Where are you politically and how would YOU describe your leanings since you think I have failed miserably at it.

    By the way, I would consider communism to be far left. Some try to make it far right. I doubt if we will come to an agreement on what is left and what is right.

    As for your food for thought, I tasted it and found it to be lacking in flavor. Anything in particular you want me to glean from it?

     
  • At 9:37 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    Well, by profession I am an economist but I don't work as one anymore except for a couple of ethical investment funds from time to time and even then it is more hands on than the usual role.

    I can offer no labels to my politics except "social democrat" which is not nearly precise enough, but is the best I can do.

    Having travelled and worked in many places, I believe that every country at any given time requires different economic directions, solutions and stimuli. I am no ideologue.

    I don't fear marxism or capitalism but the extreme ends of either are just as destructive as the other.

    I see neoliberalism as the greatest economic hoax in the history of civilization and the cause of much of the turmoil and wholesale slaughter that is going on in the middle east.

    I've been in the middle east enough to know that the great islamic conspiracy that you are being fed is a complete fabrication.

    I've been in the West Bank enough to know that your view is totally at odds with the reality.

    I am not tribal in any way outside of cheering for my national rugby and cricket teams. States are just legal constructs, people are real.

    The world will never be fair, but we are rapidly making it way more unfair.

    I didn't like Clinton or Bush the senior but the current administration has reached a historic low in integrity, competence and hubris.

    That they are a criminal gang of bungling incompetents with a cabal of neofascist ideologues of dubious national loyalty in the background should be obvious to all, but doesn't seem to be.

     
  • At 9:50 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    CF,

    No lie or BS, I appreciate your taking the time to write this. That is cool that you are/were an economist. Give me some time to digest this as it is late here and my wife and I are about to watch something.

    While I have heard economists I agree with and economists I disagree with, I never had a personal discussion with one. I may have some questions for you.

    In parting for the night, if I tone down my rhetoric, I hope you will tone yours down. Things always take a nasty turn when I meet a new blog acquaintance to the left of me. I have high doubts we will come much closer in agreement but I think I can learn a lot from you.

    Puff, puff. Peace pipe coming your way...

     
  • At 10:31 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    Yeah ok. If you expecting to study economic theory through me I fear you'll be disappointed though.

    It was a long time ago and I wasn't that interested to be honest. I specialised in post war western reconstruction and more from the political angle than dry theory.

    I have politics in the blood but I've grown entirely disenchanted. I have only contempt left for the whole process.

    You're still not going to like what I have to say about US foreign policy either.

     
  • At 11:25 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    Ok, my show is over and I have time for a quick note before bed.

    I have politics in the blood but I've grown entirely disenchanted. I have only contempt left for the whole process.

    I am nearly at that point. I am disgusted with both parties. I don't feel good when the GOP gets in office because I think they will do something great or even close to what I want. I feel good because they beat the Dems whom I view as worse.

    You're still not going to like what I have to say about US foreign policy either.

    I can deal with that. My first question. I read what you said about the US economy being theft on a grand scale. I did not understand it at all. Can you break it down into simpler terms. Such a concept intrigues me.

     
  • At 2:51 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    Well, I see the Repubs and the Dems as the opposite sides of a bent coin. Empire and corporatism is the goal of both parties and all the rhetoric is just about winning votes and legitimizing a corrupt system with grand words that bear no resemblance to reality.

    As for the theft, that requires quite a bit of explanation. I am busy for the next day and a bit but I will go into it.

    If you consider though that your government is running a deficit of roughly 7% of GDP while the economy is supposedly booming and much of that spending is going to private corporations you'll get the idea.

    The war in Iraq is a war of choice. There was/is no strategic or moral cause for it, and no amount of sophistry will convince any but the hard core Bushies and neocons anymore.

    This war has emptied the treasury and increased public debt to the point where without unprecedented and unsustainable economic growth you will certainly default at some stage.

    Civil service economists have made this plain but it rarely makes it into the media if at all.

    At the same time your defence budget, which is largely going to military contractors is being increased, huge weapons purchases are being made through the energy dept and aid and incentives to Israel is topping $10 billion a year.

    Corporates are making unprecedented profits, while shedding staff and reducing wages in real terms, yet they're getting tax cuts and government welfare for projects of dubious value.

    And the oil companies and their bankers are being handed the biggest blood stained treasure since time began and they'll pay an absolute pittance in taxes on it, despite the fact that your common wealth paid for its seizure.

    Haliburton, Bechtel, Blackwater, the Carlyle Group are all involved. And the big guns of the MIC are laughing all the way to their banks in the Caymans along with the Israeli political and military elite.

    Its the biggest theft in history and its being committed in plain sight.

    And all the while, your wages are being eroded and your assets sold off to foreign bond holders.

    The shit will hit the fan, but they'll be gone.

     
  • At 4:00 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    Thanks CF. It will take me at least a day to digest it.

     
  • At 10:38 PM, Blogger Jacob said…

    Well der, AICS. When some nut tries to tell you that homophobia isn't a problem when homosexuals are hidden from sight, of COURSE you're not going to argue with them.

    Some things are just too stupid to repond to, that's all.

     
  • At 4:25 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    Jacob,

    I don't know what the heck you are talking about.

    CF,

    I am still chewing on your comments. I think it will take me a bit.

    For now I think the things we can agree on are that the Dems and GOP are both bad and harmful to this country. I tend to see the GOP the lesser of the two evils, but they are and have both been evil to a degree.

    I think the huge deficits and debt that the US has racked up is cause for great concern and is high on my list. Knowing how much tax revenue comes in, though I do not see more revenue through tax hikes to be the key. The spending must come in check. We will disagree on the wars, but there is a lot of room for cutting in the social and corporate welfare that happens.

    I am once again revisiting some issues based on your comments. If I do not end up agreeing with you, I will at least be better informed than I am now.

    Thanks for taking the time to bring up the issues.

     
  • At 12:13 AM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    Mate, there is NO room for cutting social welfare in your country. That is one of the great cons of neoliberalism.

    When is it going to get through that you are getting poorer by the day? And making the poor poorer doesn't make you richer. It makes you poorer.

    Social spending is an investment.

     
  • At 9:45 AM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    CF,

    The ONE good thing that I will admit Clinton did was to sign the welfare reform act. What we saw in action was that when the free ride was cut off, people stepped up to the plate and found jobs.

    While in other countries it may not be so, in the US opportunities abound. I meet so many people that started with nothing and by making the right choices and working hard have done quite well. I also see many, many who are in the position they are in because of their own foolish choices. I am fine with giving a helping hand, but I am not fine with putting healthy and able people on a long term handout.

    There is a lot of room for cutting the budget, both in welfare and waste.

    You also seem a little inconsistent unless I misunderstand. On the one hand the US is in so much trouble because of its deficit and debt. It is fine to give billions to the "poor". Yet it is bad to give billions to corporations who can use the money to turn around and create jobs.

    I am not for personal or corporate welfare, but I find it interesting you seem (unless I misunderstand) to support one and reject the other.

    As for waste, I heard once that there is probably at least 25% waste in the government budgets at every level. Cutting half of that waste would go a long way.

     
  • At 4:17 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    "You also seem a little inconsistent unless I misunderstand. On the one hand the US is in so much trouble because of its deficit and debt. It is fine to give billions to the "poor". Yet it is bad to give billions to corporations who can use the money to turn around and create jobs."


    There is no evidence a) that under neoliberal systems giving the common wealth to already wealthy corporates actually creates real jobs any more efficiently than government can (in fact the empirical evidence suggests otherwise) and b) unless the short term jobs created are of real value i.e. producing a tangible asset, there is no wealth created, only debt. "Defence" industry jobs fall into this category.


    Your whole system runs on corporate welfare, cheap foreign manufactured goods, artificially cheap oil and low wages and worker conditions. Your democracy is at risk due to the pursuit of empire. You can't have both.


    "While in other countries it may not be so, in the US opportunities abound"


    It would help you a lot, if you knew what happened in other countries. Many of us enjoy much higher standards of living, are wealthier, healthier and way way less aggressive. We have less crime, lower prison populations etc etc etc.

    In every case in the western world where govts have embraced neoliberal economic principles, these indicators have worsened.

    The empirical evidence is in. It doesn't work for anyone except the already wealthy and a few individuals that can manipulate the system (and I include myself as one of this group). What you would term "welfare states" have fared better.

    Don't believe all the propaganda about Europe crumbling blah blah blah. I've seen the blathering and seen the reality. The propaganda is bogus.

    The morality based arguments that you are driven toward using are partial, incomplete and unhelpful in the real world.

    You still haven't got your head around the debt.

     
  • At 4:57 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    Just to make clear, I am against corporate welfare. Even governments need to purchase things. I don't see "Defense" as corporate welfare unless they manufacture a war to justify the spending. Of course I know that is what you believe happened.

    Anyway,

    You still haven't got your head around the debt.

    With the debt being this serious, isn't it time for the government to get out of every non-essential spending area in order to get a handle on it? (welfare, subsidies, grants, arts, etc.) I mean if the country is going to crumble under the debt that is pretty serious. Shouldn't we put survival above socialist endeavors?

     
  • At 11:48 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    There would be no point in having a state then surely.

     
  • At 11:49 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    The waste in the defence budget could keep several small nations afloat.

     
  • At 12:37 AM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    The waste in the defence budget could keep several small nations afloat.

    Since the military is a bureaucracy like any other government agency I would agree that they too must have a sizable waste problem. Same with those agencies that run education, medicare, medicaid, welfare, transportation, etc. As a whole I am sure the US wastes more than the GDP of almost any other country.

     

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