The Logic Lifeline

A logical approach to sorting out world events. Where logic, opinion and speculation are combined to produce a reasoned, but entertaining reading experience. The unofficial hometown conservative blog of Woodridge, Il

Tuesday, March 06, 2007

Belcher Cannot Keep Hand From Sabotage

As most who read here know, I like to give people nicknames: Nancy "the Stumbler" Pelosi, Chris "Bread Slice" Dodd, etc. I have long considered Alan Greenspan "the Belcher" but until now have not posted it. During his term as Fed Chairman it seemed he had an affinity to periodically "belch" out a comment that would have an immediate affect on the market. Usually it was not favorable for the economy, but sometimes he would be forced to say something nice. One might excuse this little habit and assume it was part of the job. Now that he no longer holds the position, such antics can only be driven by extreme hubris.

In the last week alone Greenspan has been belching comments about a potential downturn in the economy. In the third episode I have read he is now predicting there is a 30% chance of a recession in 2007. (Buuurrrp) A story in Bloomberg says:
Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said there's a ``one-third probability'' of a U.S. recession this year and that the current expansion won't have the staying power of its decade-long predecessor.

``We are in the sixth year of a recovery; imbalances can emerge as a result,'' Greenspan, 81, said in an interview yesterday at his office in downtown Washington. ``Ten-year recoveries have been part of a much broader global phenomenon. The historically normal business cycle is much shorter'' and is likely to be this time, he added.

Greenspan's outlook contrasts with the prediction of his successor Ben S. Bernanke, who told Congress last week that the economy may strengthen this year. Bernanke's upbeat assessment helped steady stock markets on Feb. 28 after a plunge the day before that some traders attribute partly to Greenspan's musing that a recession couldn't be ruled out.

``It is possible that we can have a recession at the end of this year,'' said Greenspan, who ran the central bank for 18 years until January 2006. Bernanke, 53, declined to comment.

We see several things in that quote. First, Greenspan is retired and there is no need for him to comment any longer. Second, it comes on the heels of the shaky global markets. With the markets jittery enough, Greenspan knows that such statements can add to the jitters regardless of any substantiation. Third, his successor had come out after the market shakeup and calmed them by declaring his opinion that the economy will have an upturn this year. What would drive Greenspan to come out and contradict that? The timing, the statement and the complete lack of class here makes the Belcher look like a chump.

Finally, reading the story you would come away with the notion that his opinion is solely based on the fact that the current economic expansion has been so long - six years. You know, the low interest, low inflation, low unemployment, increased revenue economy that libs have been bashing has now been in expansion mode so long that the Belcher thinks it likely won't go on longer. He claims in the article that "...he has been careful to avoid making life difficult for his successor." The left leanings of the Greenspan family are known. I guess the thought that the Bush economy may fall in the category of one of the longest expanding economies does not sit well with him. He simply could not resist a potshot and let his successor rot.

The fact is that a 7-10 year expansion for the Bush economy with a foundation of tax cuts is anathema to liberals. Liberals cannot afford for Bush to exit his presidency with any mark of success. They have fought this economy every step of the way and it has gone up in spite of their antics. They fight tooth and nail against the war on terror. They opposed the surge because even though Bush has had shortcomings so far, a good final outcome in Iraq would make them look quite bad. This is why some liberal dems are revolting against their boxed in leadership on Iraq funding. The surge is showing early sign of progress and that simply must be stopped by their thinking.

Shame on Greenspan. His cowardly 30% chance of recession allows him to step in and cause potential damage while not losing any credibility if it does not happen. After all there is a 70% chance it won't happen. The question is what are you hoping for? Are you hoping the economy will continue to expand? Are you hoping the surge will produce good results? Whose side are you on?

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40 Comments:

  • At 5:18 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    How will your children and grandchildren pay for your "expansion"?

    You are now the largest debtor nation in relative terms, in the history of mankind.

    Your public debt to the Fed alone (which is in fact foreign debt, but not included in the accounts as such), attracts interest of roughly 2% of GDP and your exports are declining.

    Hmmm.

     
  • At 5:24 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    Confused,

    My children and grandchildren will not be paying for an expansion (revenue), they will be paying for the obscene spending (cost) as a result of both political parties in this country.

    Why do you mix the two? I am in full agreement with you that we should balance the budget. I am sure you and I would disagree how.

     
  • At 7:08 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    I think you need a little economics 101.

    The expansion in your economy is funded by debt. Every dollar "created" is a debt that attracts interest.

    Your children and grandchildren will be paying the interest on that debt from an economic base that exports almost nothing and won't do without a seismic change in economic structure.

    It can't be done.

     
  • At 8:08 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    from an economic base that exports almost nothing

    You can either take a mulligan on that statement or provide some support for it.

     
  • At 9:26 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    Have a look at your trade deficit.

    And it will get worse. Nobody wants your GMO crops and your agribusiness only survives from government handouts, your manufacturing industries have moved to China and your high tech sevice businesses are going to India and Singapore.

    Your economy has expanded without creating underlying wealth (housing, equities markets) and most of the dollars created (about 85%) are in foreign hands.

    If America was a company, you'd be in debtors court for trading while insolvent.

    And yet you spend more on military equipment than the rest of the world combined despite not being under any substantial threat.

    It's madness on a grand scale.

     
  • At 10:22 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    Actually it's theft on a grand scale.

     
  • At 12:43 AM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    It is amazing how eager folks like you sound when discussing this the way you do. I get this picture of you rubbing your hands together with eager anticipation to see the house of cards come crashing down.

    Remember, if it does so does the rest of the world with it and hard. So I would not be so eager for it.

    I agree we need to get the spending in control. Due to the % of GDP, I do not think it is as drastic as you picture it. We will see.

    If the big world crash hits, I will be heading for the nearest tropical island to live off the land.

     
  • At 12:45 AM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    So tell me about your country and all the things they are doing right. I am truly interested.

     
  • At 3:45 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    Oh well, my country is doing virtually nothing right. We've had a zealous neoliberal regime whose sole motivation seems to be sucking up to Bushco and providing welfare for the extremely wealthy.

    Sure, the world will suffer if the US falls over, but a lot of people are coming to the view that it is better to happen sooner than later.i.e. a relatively minor catastrophe as opposed to a global economic meltdown witn an associated nuclear war.

    Quite why you get that impression by my pointing out the structural deficiencies I don't know though. Your elites know the facts and are investing accordingly as have I. Everyone is getting out of US$, including your own president and VP.

    The poor and the middle classes don't have that choice though do they?

     
  • At 4:00 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    An economic fall of the US would not only have economic consequences around the world. The nasty elements around the world that the world body loves to kiss up to will have no restraint if not for the US. Depending on who best survives the economic collapse it will either be China, Russia, or a conglomeration of Islamic Jihadists.

    No matter which, the days under the Bush administration will be looking pretty good.

     
  • At 5:57 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    A collection of Islamic jihadists? LOL. So this band of goat herders running around in the hills of Afghanistan are going to take over the world somehow? They don't even have control of a country let alone the ability to take the West.

    The Shanghai Cooperation Council may well be the recipient of a US downfall.

    Would it be any worse than the US as the sole rogue superpower? Probably not.

    I'd rather see a world where international law was respected and genuine liberal democracy was the goal for all peoples, but if we can't have that, then whichever jackboot is on my ground will be my enemy.

    Is this emppire worth the risk, do you think? It doesn't seem to be helping the US as a people and the elite seems to be moving out.

     
  • At 7:34 AM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    CF,

    China a moral equivalent of the US? Sorry, but you don't have two feet in reality. There are probably more people in China suffering human rights abuses than the entire population of the US. And we are talking real abuses, not sleep deprivation, loud music and having to wear women's panties.

    You are right. Islamic Jihad will not win by military strength. They will win by a combination of infiltration and a warped mass Stockholm Syndrome. There is also dhimmitude.

     
  • At 3:14 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    "Dhimmitude"? Oh please. You say I'm not grounded and then mention a paranoid conspiracy theory based on a 1400 year old book.

    How will this very small number of fanatics put fundamentalist sharia in place without overwhelming force?

    How does the power of these people compare to the fundy Xians close to power in the US, or the fundy Jews in control of hundreds of nukes in Israel?

    How do these muslims overcome that?

    I think you've been reading nuts like Steyn and Melanie Phillips along with your Ms Lippman. These people are scaremongers and serial liars. How many times can they be so overwhelmingly wrong about things before you stop believing them?

    Nearly all muslims are secular and their grievances are about oppression and lack of democracy and self determination.

    Have you ever been to a predominately muslim country?

    As for your Chinese stuff.....incredible.Compare the number of Chinese invasions since 1949 to US invasions, coups, insurgencies and foreign puppet regimes. How many people live under brutal, oppressive US backed tyrants right now?

    The Chinese marxists certainly are no angels but neither are you. Your foreign policy is decidedly antidemocratic and antihuman rights.

    Your best friends are some of the most brutal regimes on earth and your "enemies" all happen to have oil.

    Wake up to yourself. It isn't good vs evil. It is men vs men and it's all about treasure.

    As for the Russians, their democracy seems on a par with yours. Not very strong right now.

     
  • At 3:23 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    And as for your view of US prisoner torture, I can only conclude that you really are in denial.

    The level of propagandization in your country allows you to glibly condone brutal, unfair, illegal barbarity seemingly without any empathy for your fellow human beings.

    And you feel that your empire is a righteous cause.

    Pretty close to fascism I'd say.

     
  • At 11:36 AM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    How will this very small number of fanatics put fundamentalist sharia in place without overwhelming force?

    By too many people in positions of influence falling for your version of history and current events.

    I am curious about your background. On my blog I bring information about myself that gives a good picture of my background and why I hold the positions I do.

    You have no such portal into where you are coming from. What is your stake in writing the tripe you do? When did you start believing it (if you even do). From all of your comments I have read I do not think you actually do believe them, but are trying to distribute propaganda. You never support anything you say. My guess is that if you did it would be from sources I would laugh at.

    Either provide some background or start your own blog so people can get a sense of who you are and where you are coming from. Because basically you are simply coming across like a raving lunatic.

     
  • At 11:38 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    Sources you'd laugh at? Most people with your view of the world tend to dismiss anything that doesn't marry with the White House tallking points. Its a catch all bubble wrap.

    Whether you do or not I don't know, but if you don't laugh at the rubbish in the Murdoch press a la Fox News, then I don't think you'll accept much of anything real.

    It is one thing to say my views are tripe but if you are serious, maybe you could pick one or two and either argue the point or ask how I got to where I think.

    I am not any sort of propagandist and I read from all sources. Everything that I can. If facts aren't verifiable then I am suspicious of them.

    I've also been close enough to the centres of power to know how the propaganda game works.

    I've watched Rupert Murdoch for nearly 30 years now and there is no more amoral liar on the face of the earth.

    I've spent a lot of time working in many 3rd world countries, have spent time in the m-e, seen the Istraeli occupation first hand and when I've done reports for the UN nobody has ever changed one letter or one number in the reports. Ever.

     
  • At 11:43 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    Oh I missed the bit about raving lunatic. That's cheap ad hominem. Moral and intellectual cowards use ad hominem in my experience.

    I note that you haven't actually made any sort of argument to support your islamic jihadist conspiracy theory.

    Do you really believe that your country isn't torturing people? A lot of people. Don't you read anything from outside your country? Ever?

     
  • At 7:20 AM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    Do you really believe that your country isn't torturing people? A lot of people.

    Ok, there is a point we can start with. You cannot support this with good sources. And don't give me the tired sleep deprivation, hot cold, loud music, women's underwear, waterboarding garbage. I'm talking about torture. Something we could see scars from to this day. Not happening. Certainly not happening a lot. You must be confusing us with China.

     
  • At 8:14 AM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    Moral and intellectual cowards use ad hominem in my experience.

    You lefties are just brimming wih hypocrisy. You are quite the offender with your name calling: maggot, pathetic, and now moral and intellectual coward. You would think one would reserve the hypocrisy for two separate breaths. Oh, I forgot lefties get to live by separate rules than the rest of us: The Greater Good and all. What a joke.

     
  • At 8:27 AM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    And just what is moral and intellectual cowardice anyway? What an odd term. Flip it around to moral and intellectual bravery and it doesn't make much sense there either. I guess just something to make up and throw against the wall hoping it will stick instead of supporting any point you have made yet.

    You accuse me of not supporting my points. As for bravery, I have a blog that I write to that I use supporting sources for. You on the other hand have no blog. I guess not quite brave enough to have to write to something centralized that you might have to defend.

    No you simply go to the blogs of others and write statements that are so off the wall and disengaged from reality that it simply makes no sense to argue against until some supporting evidence is produced. You then try to duck supporting by accusing me of various things: all of which you are guilty of. You accuse me of not engaging in any real debate. I'm ready as soon as you provide something substantive. Start with the torture issue if you can. I already know where you are going to go with it, but I am willing to dance if you are.

     
  • At 6:28 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    "Ok, there is a point we can start with. You cannot support this with good sources. And don't give me the tired sleep deprivation, hot cold, loud music, women's underwear, waterboarding garbage."


    So, that isn't torture? Put yourself in that position. What about isolation for months on end? Not torture? Anal rape? Sexual humiliation? None of these well documented abuses aren't torture? What about the hundreds of prisoners who've died under "robust interrogation? No?

    What is the value of these 'treatments', if not to degrade and abuse?

    Have I used ad hominem on you? No.

    Waterboarding isn't torture. Jeezuss, where is your humanity. What sort of monsters have you become?

     
  • At 8:38 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    No I do not consider waterboarding and long isolation to be torture. You have added "monster" to the name calling. So be it. I disagree with you on what torture consists of. To me it does not consist of a bad experience on a discomfort level. Inspiring fear without doing physical damage also is not torture in my book. The enemy has shown us the "monstrous" behavior of beheadings, roadside bombs, killing of innocents, using holy places as headquarters for attacks. Yet, you only have strong denouncing words for the US. Never them. Who is the monster?

    The anal and sexual references I assume refer to Abu Graibh? The bad apples that performed those humiliating and despicable acts are being punished. To paint the US with the broad brush of the actions of these people is dishonest.

    As for the hundreds who have died under "robust interrogation" I would be interested in some trustworthy documentation. I would exclude those who have successfully committed suicide from any list you have. US soldiers spent many years as POWs in WWII and Vietnam waiting for the war to end. This is not unusual.

    There are many countries out there who are committing true atrocities and serious torture, mutilation and murder. Because people like you spend all of your time trying to pin the slightest bad mark on the US, many thousands must suffer and die for lack of world attention.

    Again, who is the monster?

     
  • At 6:04 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    That others are doing bad deeds does not excuse yours. Nor does my criticism of US malfeasance offer any evidence of my condoning others actions.

    This is a very childish style of argument.

    Torture is torture.

    That you see no evidence of US torture, massacres, deliberate targeting of civilians, systematic rape and abuse in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere is more to do with your lack of curiosity and the fact that you intentionally limit your sources to those who serve your confirmation bias.

    The people you appear to read have little credibility, nor any experience in the retrieval and dissemination of facts. They are opinion writers, not reporters. They are theorists, not purveyors of evidence.

    That they can sell their crackpot theories to you as mainstream thought is stunning.

    That, despite tha fact that the huge majority of the global population sees you as terrorists, monsters and imperialists, you cling to the belief that you do no wrong is unbelievably stubborn and antirational.

    People hate you for what you do, not what you are. And what you do, is antidemocratic, violent, military oppression, theft and malfeasance.

    That, my nationalist friend, is who you are.

    End.

     
  • At 8:01 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    That others are doing bad deeds does not excuse yours. Nor does my criticism of US malfeasance offer any evidence of my condoning others actions.

    However, to focus on the thimble of bad deeds of the US instead of the ocean of bad deeds by others is very telling of what your agenda might be. I know you would disagree with the "thimble" comparison but you offer nothing to support an alternate view in spite of many requests.

    This is a very childish style of argument.

    It is more childish to keep insisting you are right while offering no evidence because you simply claim I would reject it because I disagree with it. Sorry, but I never use disagreement as the standard for disbelief. Presented with credible evidence I am willing to accept it. To merely state that the masses believe something does not make it credible. The masses have been wrong before and they will be wrong again.

    Torture is torture.
    I agree. But we disagree on what torture is.

    That you see no evidence of US torture, massacres, deliberate targeting of civilians, systematic rape and abuse in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere is more to do with your lack of curiosity and the fact that you intentionally limit your sources to those who serve your confirmation bias.

    You have not shown me that you are not guilty of the things you say about me (usually the contrary). You are doing nothing to provide me with credible sources. Your assertion that I lack curiosity is as false as it comes. I have spent many hours researching and reading those that believe differently than me. I have yet to see any claims substantiated. The only thing I ever hear are the words of those with a public bias against the US and toward a preconceived agenda.

    I am not afraid of the truth. If the truth is something I do not like, I can work to change circumstances more to my liking. Just show me credible, tangible proof and I will believe. What is so hard about that. Why are you so afraid to support what you claim?

    The people you appear to read have little credibility, nor any experience in the retrieval and dissemination of facts. They are opinion writers, not reporters. They are theorists, not purveyors of evidence.

    Sorry but to me all reporters = opinion writers. Everything that anybody writes is influenced by their agenda and beliefs. If you believe otherwise then you have been duped.

    That they can sell their crackpot theories to you as mainstream thought is stunning.

    First, the term mainstream is very meaningless to me. The truth is the truth whether 1 person believes it or 6 billion people believe it. More people believing something does not make it more likely to be true. Nor does it make it false.

    That, despite tha fact that the huge majority of the global population sees you as terrorists, monsters and imperialists, you cling to the belief that you do no wrong is unbelievably stubborn and antirational.

    You are so hung up on majority opinion. Can't you think for yourself? Your point itself shows how ridiculous this whole agenda driven way of thinking is. If the world body were consistent they would be boiling over with rage and hatred for the countries I have mentioned before: China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, etc. The world, including you, lacks credibility when they only have time to protest the US.

    People hate you for what you do, not what you are. And what you do, is antidemocratic, violent, military oppression, theft and malfeasance.

    No. If people hate us it may be because of what they think we are. If 5 billion people have a poor opinion of us because of misinformation why should I be concerned about changing who we are?

    That, my nationalist friend, is who you are.

    Sorry, but you were at zero % accuracy on this comment. I'll give you a consolation and own up to being a nationalist. However, truth and justice come before my loyalty to my country.

     
  • At 6:05 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    " I have spent many hours researching and reading those that believe differently than me. I have yet to see any claims substantiated. The only thing I ever hear are the words of those with a public bias against the US and toward a preconceived agenda."


    That statement, my friend, says it all. I will copy this to a word document to use in future as the gold standard for self enforced confirmation bias.

    Have a nice life. (unfortunately that probably necessitates killing lots of brown people)

    My first tenet to life is to do no harm, so we are at opposite ends of humanity.

     
  • At 6:08 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    " However, truth and justice come before my loyalty to my country."


    Ha, if that were true you wouldn't be an islamophobe.

    The Palestinnians are clearly the most oppressed and unjustly treated people on the planet, yet you loathe them and cheer their ethnicide without any cognizance of the facts.

     
  • At 9:51 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    That statement, my friend, says it all. I will copy this to a word document to use in future as the gold standard for self enforced confirmation bias.

    However, if you apply the same standard to yourself you will arrive at one of two conclusions.

    One: you never read anything you disagree with and therefore it is no wonder you are so myopic in your opinions or
    Two: You do read as much of the "other side" as I do and you are a gold standard of this confirmation bias that you accuse me of.

    Have a nice life. (unfortunately that probably necessitates killing lots of brown people)

    My first tenet to life is to do no harm, so we are at opposite ends of humanity.


    I guess you are shallow enough to come to such conclusions without backing. "Let's see AICS doesn't believe the way I do so -- knee jerk!! -- he must be an evil racist."

    I guess you have maxed out on the intellectual level with your big words "ad hominem" and "confirmation bias". Gee did your professor give you those? Too bad he didn't give you anything to back up all these false beliefs he brainwashed you with. I'm still waiting for some proof, but I guess the most "credible" source you have is Al Jazeera. I'd hate to see the least credible.

    Ha, if that were true you wouldn't be an islamophobe.

    The Palestinnians are clearly the most oppressed and unjustly treated people on the planet, yet you loathe them and cheer their ethnicide without any cognizance of the facts.


    Yet another name to add to your only ammunition: name calling. Give me a break on the Palestinians. How would you compare them to the suffering Christians in Darfur??? Or the suffering Christians in China, Vietnam, North Korea, India, and Pakistan. I suppose you just shrug your shoulders and figure they deserve it.

    I hope a peaceful resolution comes to Israel and Palestine. I do not wish suffering and/or death on any, except maybe terrorists. This includes all of the domestic white terrorists who plague our children with their sexual perversion and molestation. There is no difference between the monsters that rape and kill children (here or in Europe) and those who target and kill innocent children in Israel and Iraq with bombs.

    You have no anger or outrage left for the real monsters of this world having used it all up on unprovable ghost monsters.

    Are you ever going to get around to saying anything? I feel like I am debating a puff of smoke.

     
  • At 4:36 AM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    Out of your depth.

    You're a shill without comeback.

     
  • At 9:32 AM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    Out of your depth.

    You're a shill without comeback.


    Now you have gone from vapor to school yard taunting. It is obvious that after asking generally for you to support your wild claims to specifically supporting one claim, to asking many times for such support that you have nothing.

    You hide behind your name calling. You hide behind unfounded claims against me. You hide behind claims I won't have a serious debate. You hide behind claims I am too stupid to debate. You hide behind claims that I am too bias to debate. You hide behind big clouds of vaporous statements that say nothing. I ask for one little thing and you failed to deliver.

    If we are simply spinning around words, it may be that you are better than I at blowing out clouds of words. Yet I asked you for facts. It is then that your mask fell off and you lost the game.

     
  • At 4:16 AM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    J.S. Mill: "he who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that."

     
  • At 7:23 AM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    J.S. Mill: "he who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that."

    I guess it is time for you to start learning the other side then.

    Still waiting for that support of your claims of torture, rape and massacre. If waterboarding is the best you've got then your anger at the US compared to other things going on in the world is very, very lopsided and can only be guided by a seething hatred.

     
  • At 3:36 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    Try Human Rights Watch. No doubt they are leftists and bias (sic).

    You know, I don't get why you think these rhetorical games and dishonest devices actually do anything to advance your cause.

    I think it is just tribalism.

    And again, your strawmen are pointless. You have no idea of who I am, what I do or my political leanings. Do you think being dishonest is an asset?

     
  • At 3:37 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    "I guess it is time for you to start learning the other side then."


    Any idea, given the situation right here, of how inane that is? Do you have no sense of irony?

     
  • At 5:27 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    Try Human Rights Watch. No doubt they are leftists and bias (sic).
    Correct. You would have to find something more credible than them.

    You know, I don't get why you think these rhetorical games and dishonest devices actually do anything to advance your cause.

    I find it laughable that you accuse me of rhetorical games. You asked to to pick one point to debate. I selected the torture, rape and massacre accusation. You then claimed you would not do my research for me. If that is not a rhetorical game, I don't know what is. So far after many many prompts the MOST you have provided is the name of a liberal organization. No specific, clear cut, documented example of torture.

    I think it is just tribalism.
    Hurray, another buzz word. And who plays the rhetorical games?

    And again, your strawmen are pointless. You have no idea of who I am, what I do or my political leanings. Do you think being dishonest is an asset?

    Now who joins a conversation with such an arrogant attitude? Let's have it. Who are you? What do you do? What are your political leanings? I would tell you all you want to know about me to the extent my anonimity allows. Except for information that would give away my identity, I have no problem discussing what I do, my interests, my political leanings, etc. You have had ample oppotunity to correct my straw men with information, but you are too arrogant, fearful or something to join in a civilized conversation.

     
  • At 12:06 AM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    So, the only evidence has to come from the torturers themselves, is what your attitude boils down to doesn't it?

    Do you see how you are short changing your views here?

    Seriously you really need to check the way you think because you are actually deliberately limiting your thinking.

    I give up. The evidence is all around you but you refuse to see it. You need to help yourself.

    Life is much more fullfilling that way. Being a drone is not life at all.

     
  • At 12:40 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    CF,

    Falling short of providing a way for you to read my thoughts, I realize there is no way for me to convince you of how far off the mark you are in your view of me. I am no narrow thinker, nor drone. Yes I have loyalties, but not at the expense of my principles. This means I can give one or a group I have granted my loyalty to the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Somehow you see this as a character flaw, but we will disagree on that. You would call it confirmation bias.

    As for the subject of torture, you are only looking at a part of the picture. There are two sides to the story:

    The people in position at Gitmo deny any torturous treatment of their prisoners. That is one side.

    The prisoners have made claims of torture to various groups: human rights organizations and media. That is the other side.

    If the organizations in question and much of the media has shown itself to be hostile toward the US, especially its war on terror. Physical evidence of mistreatment can be easily manufactured. Even so, I have not seen much evidence. So we have two sides. Since we seem to have a situation where there is the word of the guards against the word of the prisoners, conclusions can only be based on bias or loyalty.

    I find it interesting that my bias or loyalty is branded bad by you, yet your bias is pictured as good. This evidence that is supposed to be "all around me" at its root is based on the word of the prisoners. Others have chosen to take it at face value and add claims in high profile ways. They have taken something small and unprovable and blown many clouds of smoke so that yes, the claims are all around me. That does not make it so.

    One side is telling the truth and one side is lying. How do you propose to know with certainty which is which?

     
  • At 4:50 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    No, I look for empirical evidence. You deliberately choose to believe the party line and defend it with knee jerk preprogrammed responses and limit your sources of evidence.


    I would say that having loyalty to the elites that are screwing you, screwing them (whoever them is at any given time) and are conducting themselves in direct opposition to their public pronouncements, is a fool's errand, wouldn't you?

    The "war on terror" is a scam. Pure and simple.It is about empire, theft (from you and the other) and blowback.

    We (the west) are the biggest terrorists on earth. We are killing them, our troops are in their lands, we are handing their oil to our transnational corporates and paying for its theft, we are imposing our "values" on them.

    As I said before. They hate us not for what we are, but what we do.

    You need to get out and see what we do. Believe me, I've seen it and it is barbarism every bit as bad as anything perpetrated ever before.

    You want the media to present the good news from Iraq? You'll have to invent it because there isn't any. Iraq is a hellfire and we did it.

     
  • At 4:54 PM, Blogger confusedforeigner said…

    "One side is telling the truth and one side is lying. How do you propose to know with certainty which is which?"


    Sometimes you have to trust the balance of probabilities and figure out who benefits. There is a clear benefit to denying torture, there is no clear tangible benefit to what HRW or Amnesty does.


    Why would the Military Commissions Act be necessary if there was no intent to torture and corrupt the legal system and the rights of individuals to prove their innocence?

    Who benefits?

     
  • At 6:04 PM, Blogger cringinginamazement said…

    http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1207-10.htm

    The FBI is hardly known for liberal bias, but in wingnut world they soon will be.

    The logic is "We don't torture" and anyone who says we do is lying, so we won't accept any evidence from them.

    Perfect circular logic. Fact free and guaranteed to make us righteous.

    Neocons are fascists.

     
  • At 8:33 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    CA/CF,

    The logic is "We don't torture" and anyone who says we do is lying, so we won't accept any evidence from them.

    Perfect circular logic. Fact free and guaranteed to make us righteous.


    The flip-side "logic" is "We do torture" and anyone who says we do is telling the truth, so we accept any evidence from them.

    Somehow such "logic" from you is good, but from me it bad. Your double standard just never ends.

     

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