The Logic Lifeline

A logical approach to sorting out world events. Where logic, opinion and speculation are combined to produce a reasoned, but entertaining reading experience. The unofficial hometown conservative blog of Woodridge, Il

Sunday, September 17, 2006

Shame or Shameless?

The Canadian National Post has an editorial by a Father Raymond J. de Souza titled Rioters' Madness Shames Muslim World. It is a lengthy piece that addresses the reaction to the Pope's speech. The portion I address is the notion that many in the Muslim world are shamed by the reactions. The title clearly reflects this, but another section also highlights it:
In response to this historical excursus in an academic lecture by one of the world's most erudite theologians, we are witnessing a wave of madness and malice, no doubt an embarrassment to millions of Muslims.
When I read that, my first thought was that I have yet to see or hear any sign of embarrassment by the Muslim world over any of the outrageous behavior we have seen in recent decades. If such shame exists, I am not aware of it through any media source including those associated with Muslim countries.

I have read the Pope's speech and come to the conclusion that those offended by the contents must be somewhat low in intelligence and unable to grasp such concepts as context and quoting. It was a matter of reacting first and thinking later; though I am not sure they have come to the thinking part yet. Though I don't see it, even if the Pope's words were offensive; the Islamic world needs to come to grips with the concept of freedom of speech.

Michelle Malkin has quite a rundown on the reactions. There are a number of threats and destructive behavior:

  • The Anglican church in Gaza was firebombed
  • A group threatens to kill all Christians in Iraq if the Pope does not apologize in 3 days
  • A fatwa is issued to kill anyone on the spot who offend Mohammed
  • A threat of property destruction at the Vatican
  • Threats by the Taliban for the Pope to apologize
  • And more
I wish it were true that many in the Islamic world are embarrassed by these actions. I just don't see any sign that it is true. If there is shame, those who feel it have been cowered into silence by the radical elements and their followers. Hopefully more moderate elements will rise and gain followers who will find the courage to speak out against these actions.

22 Comments:

  • At 4:19 PM, Blogger عشتار said…

    I have to say that a man in the pope's position has to be more than careful in his statements specialy under the current sensitive situation between the west and the east.
    however i was reading his speach ,and i beleive that it was somehow misinterpretated , he just qouted some dialogue between some byzantine emperor , who's empire was under othman threat , and a learned persian moslem ,where the emperor wanted to explain the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable.
    and in regards to that dialogue the pope says:

    ". In this lecture I would like to discuss only one point – itself rather marginal to the dialogue itself - which, in the context of the issue of "faith and reason".."

    and in his discussion he quotes the surah which says that "there is no compulsion in religeon"

    In fact i was positively surprised to find that in this speach the pope debates the man's relation with God , if God is absolutely transcendent or his will should be bounded with our rationality.

    It could be that there are too many ways how his speach can be interpretated but regardless of its context , it cant be that we lost any language except the language of violence , it cant be that we have no other ways of reaction except violent demonstrations , burning flags cars and churches , threatening to burn Rome and to explode the western capitals...even some of our "intellctuals" rushed to talk about religeous war!!
    we see people being killed daily in iraq in the name of Islam ,women stoned to death in the name of Islam , only few weeks ago fanatics cut the head of sudani journalist in the name of Islam and NO ONE is doing anything , not the regime , not the people , not even the intellectuals to stand against those who distort the image of Islam...so how do we expect the world to be protictive and positive to our image if we are destroying it by our own hands?
    (Note m not moslem but i say WE because i belong to this people no matter of religion)

     
  • At 7:08 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    I cannot read the name you go by, but thanks for commenting. Your comment is very appropriate in response to my post.

    My points are not to assault Islam, but hopefully to get some from within to think about how such reactions are destructive.

    I agree that all leaders such as the Pope should be careful of what they say. I watched a bit of news today and it seems that they were placing blame on the Pope. I disagree. When there is destruction of property, murder and threats as the result of mere words, we cannot blame the speaker. We must blame the perpetrators of the violence.

    I hope you come back. All comments are welcome here.

     
  • At 3:39 PM, Blogger Marie Laveau said…

    The world is going through a most unusual war and it seems that a lot of people are under stress and this pope like some of them in the past talk when they should have been listening, he quoted from something that was during the last crusades, which was a zinger to begin with especially after Bush talked awhile back about this being a time of a new crusade.

    When you put fuel on a fire you’re going to get burnt. While I know a few Muslims and they are some of the nicest people I have ever met they really just went on about their business, but with us being in Iraq making and ass out of ourselves in some ways can’t blame them, because we really do not show the world we are not so good these days.

    The other day, I was listening to some American’s in a chat room bashing Muslim’s really making a horses asses out of themselves and if that is what the Muslim world thinks we are all in the West like; no wonder they think we no good.

     
  • At 3:39 PM, Blogger Marie Laveau said…

    The world is going through a most unusual war and it seems that a lot of people are under stress and this pope like some of them in the past talk when they should have been listening, he quoted from something that was during the last crusades, which was a zinger to begin with especially after Bush talked awhile back about this being a time of a new crusade.

    When you put fuel on a fire you’re going to get burnt. While I know a few Muslims and they are some of the nicest people I have ever met they really just went on about their business, but with us being in Iraq making and ass out of ourselves in some ways can’t blame them, because we really do not show the world we are not so good these days.

    The other day, I was listening to some American’s in a chat room bashing Muslim’s really making a horses asses out of themselves and if that is what the Muslim world thinks we are all in the West like; no wonder they think we no good.

     
  • At 3:39 PM, Blogger Marie Laveau said…

    The world is going through a most unusual war and it seems that a lot of people are under stress and this pope like some of them in the past talk when they should have been listening, he quoted from something that was during the last crusades, which was a zinger to begin with especially after Bush talked awhile back about this being a time of a new crusade.

    When you put fuel on a fire you’re going to get burnt. While I know a few Muslims and they are some of the nicest people I have ever met they really just went on about their business, but with us being in Iraq making and ass out of ourselves in some ways can’t blame them, because we really do not show the world we are not so good these days.

    The other day, I was listening to some American’s in a chat room bashing Muslim’s really making a horses asses out of themselves and if that is what the Muslim world thinks we are all in the West like; no wonder they think we no good.

     
  • At 9:52 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    Marie,
    Welcome to LL. We of course disagree on this issue. When you weigh the many inflamatory statements coming from the Muslim world against the Pope quoting from the time period of the Crusades, your argument does not hold up well. We cannot have two sets of rules: one for the Muslim world and one for the non-Muslim world. That is what you seem to convey. That the Muslim world must not restrain any of their rhetoric, but by all means the non-Muslim world had better restrain themselves.

    Regardless, even if the Pope was wrong in what he said, it does not excuse violent and threatening reactions to mere words. You seem to have not one word of rebuke for the reaction of the Muslim world. Nothing against fire-bombing a church, nothing for killing the Italian nun, threatening war, etc. How is it that you have no words to condemn these actions, yet you have words to criticize the Pope exercising his right to free speech?

     
  • At 7:09 AM, Blogger Malott said…

    Great post, AICS.

    If my neighbor held a crazy belief, was prone to violence, and the local authorities were intimidated - I would be very slow to criticize my neighbor.

    It's a different culture with different prejudices, and when you add violence and fear to the equation, I'm not sure how much outrage we can expect from the calmer souls in the region.

     
  • At 10:49 AM, Blogger Return to Westernesse said…

    My question is, Since when does the Pope apologize to Muslim radicals for anything? I mean, what good is it to be the Pope if you have to apologize to people? What ever happened to the good old days when the all-powerful Pope was feared because if you disagreed with him, he just excommunicated you, burned you at the stake, disemboweled you, or found some other clever way to make you regret ever being born? Or if you were Muslim and angered him enough, he just declared a new Crusade. We've come a long way when the poor guy can't even quote a historical figure without having to lie prostrate in humiliation before infidels hurling threats at him. "Is there not a cause?"

     
  • At 1:49 PM, Anonymous Jean Bard said…

    Come on people - The Pope has said nothing wrong. He quoted a phrase from the past. So what? Even if it is close to today's reality. It does not mean that it is a blasphemy. He should not apologize. In fact I would expect some "sane" Muslim clerics to stand up and defend him if indeed ISLAM IS A PEACEFUL Religion. But I really doubt

     
  • At 8:05 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    Jean Bard,

    Welcome to LL. Thanks for your comments. The way I see it there are two sets of rules when it comes to the radical Muslim world: they can perform outrageous actions we are expected to endure. We merely say something offensive and we must pay dearly.

    I too am looking for the non-radical elements of Islam to take the leadership in their religion. So far I have been disappointed.

     
  • At 8:08 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    R2W,

    The Pope's office certainly has weakened in recent decades. The drop in parishoners shows that people are not attracted to weakness. His apology was a mistake.

     
  • At 8:10 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    Malott,

    I do realize that the non-radical elements face a challenge. The alternative is that the radical elements will grow and there will be world war over this.

     
  • At 8:22 PM, Blogger Marie Laveau said…

    Your right on one respect the whole dumb world should stop being idiots and start getting along. All the wrongs should be made right in a more peaceful way and everyone stop bashing each other of who is right and who is wrong.

    I do not advocate violence of any kind, I think you, miss understood me on that point. But when there is so much unhappiness in the world, why in the world would the Pope come up with something from the crusades that was like shooting his own foot off; is what I meant!

    Even I did not know much about these Muslims until they showed up to try and help down here and getting to know some of them I find that they seem to be a nice batch of folks, I can not see these people hurting anyone on the contrary. What they did tell me is they was attacked first which fueled this mess and then everyone seems to be going back and forth, there is no two set of rules at all, some over here are mean to them and it keeps going back and forth with some folks not everyone.

    Have you fired bombed anybody lately, some over yonder I do not think are doing it but a few on both sides go running off at the mouth or just be plain stupid.

    You get me now, or you going to chase your tail again?

     
  • At 6:58 AM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    What they did tell me is they was attacked first which fueled this mess

    Did you correct their warped version of history? They were not attacked first.

    Lebanon Barracks
    Achille Laurel
    World Trade Center I
    USS Cole
    September 11
    Kobar Towers
    Bali Disco
    Madrid Train
    London Subway

    As for the rest of your comment, I understand what you are saying. I just am scratching my head when people are criticizing what the Pope said and being silent on the violence that happened after. I also having read what the Pope said, do not understand why they were so offended in the first place.

    The whole world is focusing on the Popes words and ignoring/excusing the ugly actions of those offended. I think some people in this group would be offended at silence.

     
  • At 9:37 AM, Blogger Marie Laveau said…

    Those attacks you are referring to what was behind them for them to occur, they just did not happen for no reason?

    Nobody does anything without a reason.

     
  • At 2:55 PM, Blogger THE RIGHT WING AGENDA said…

    THIS IS VERY INTERESTING!!!!!



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DoibU5njEM

    So how are things in IRAQ today??? HEckuva Job BUSHIE...MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!

     
  • At 7:53 PM, Anonymous FKAB said…

    Sorry AICS. I hate to correct someone on such a trivial point, but...

    "bali disco"

    Something like 88 Australians died in that attack, so it's not nice to besmirch their honour by saying that the nightclub they were in (the Sari club) was a disco.

    Sorry about that.

     
  • At 8:03 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    FKAB, point taken. Hehe.

     
  • At 8:05 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    Those attacks you are referring to what was behind them for them to occur, they just did not happen for no reason?

    Nobody does anything without a reason.


    Marie, still so eager to criticize the words and overlook the violence. As I have said several times, the words of the Pope should not have been offensive. Even if they were, people need to join civilized society and get over this concept that every offense demands a slit throat.

     
  • At 9:56 PM, Blogger Marie Laveau said…

    You did not understand what I was saying, I guess.

     
  • At 10:05 PM, Blogger All_I_Can_Stands said…

    Then enlighten me :)

     
  • At 4:49 PM, Blogger Marie Laveau said…

    Go get yourself, a candle!

     

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